The value of a championchip
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How much does winning it all weigh into a debate between 2 players when individual stats and other accomplishments are comparable?
Stemming from a conversation in another thread who is the better player all time in these matchups in your opinion
IT vs John Stockton
Dwyane Wade vs Vince Carter
Tim Duncan vs Charles Barkley
David Robinson vs Patrick Ewing
Oscar Robertson vs CP3
These are just a few off the top of my head feel free to add more for discussion
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Personally I don’t care about rings because there’s more to winning a ship than just any one player, some guys get lucky and play for Phil Jackson, others end up with Thibs.
But anyways Stockton > IT because of records and longevity.
And IT > Murray because the Nuggets are the new 90s Jazz.
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@petravork said in The value of a championchip:
Personally I don’t care about rings
Years of being a Harden fan has had its effects I see
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Winning a ring is a team concept, everyone has to buy in in order for it to happen.
Individual accolades are singular, they only belong to one person. Jrue holiday (who is an amazing player) won a ring last year…with his team. But he is by no stretch of the imagination on the level of Chris Paul or a RWB. I just don’t like the fact that if you didn’t win it all it somehow diminishes your accomplishments as a PLAYER. I see Shaq taking shots at Chuck all the time because chucks top 50 with no rings…but Shaq knows for a fact he never had a PF on his team CLOSE to chuck…ever.
I think winning of course is the main goal, but that shouldn’t take away from what a player was on his own.
Take Jokic for example, he’s killing Shit…more than likely gonna win MVP and will probably win multiple MVPS and set numerous records. If he doesn’t win a ring, will that tarnish the fact that he was a generational talent and one of the best ever?
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@12th but is it fair that if 2 players are comparable everywhere else stat wise, to use the ring(s) as a deciding factor?
Like in your example I don't think Jrue is a fair comparison to those 2 guys because of their collective achievements/stats elsewhere in their career.
That's like using Fisher and Iverson as a H2H. They have to be closer than that
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@yosemite_ham nah, like i said you’re a nuggets fan. If jokic keeps it up he’ll be a multiple MVP winner, record setter, etc etc…clear case first ballot and quite possibly the best center of a generation.
If he doesn’t win a ring…do we give D12 the nod over him, even though Jokic is clearly a superior talent? Even though Dwight is highly decorated in his own right, we can’t say that if jokic keeps track…Dwight is the better center.
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@yosemite_ham said in The value of a championchip:
@petravork said in The value of a championchip:
Personally I don’t care about rings
Years of being a Harden fan has had its effects I see
Naw, I’ve always felt this way. What can any superstar do when Ira Newble is getting 35 minutes a night on your team?
Some guys are stuck on shitty teams and that shouldn’t discredit them. I’d take Barkley over AD, because I think Barkley was a better player, even though he got stuck with bums like Dan Marjle as his 2nd fiddle.
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@petravork I was just throwing a light troll back at you for the Nuggets Jazz comment
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@yosemite_ham i used jokic and Dwight because i feel that’s pretty close based on jokics trajectory right now
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@12th said in The value of a championchip:
@yosemite_ham nah, like i said you’re a nuggets fan. If jokic keeps it up he’ll be a multiple MVP winner, record setter, etc etc…clear case first ballot and quite possibly the best center of a generation.
If he doesn’t win a ring…do we give D12 the nod over him, even though Jokic is clearly a superior talent? Even though Dwight is highly decorated in his own right, we can’t say that if jokic keeps track…Dwight is the better center.
Dwight will most likely have a better but shorter peak than Joker, who will most likely have a longer and more consistent peak.
If we’re going to take the best 5 years of either guys career to judge them, Dwight wins. If Joker keeps this up for another 5+ then Joker in totality.
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It holds weight but shouldn’t be the biggest deciding factor because it’s a team accomplishment.
People are allowed to say Jokic is the best player in the league but doesn’t have a ring like KD, Giannis, LeBron or Curry so what makes him worthy of the title?
Now yes we can say he’s had injuries but then that leads to why the last 5 titles can be seen as less valuable. Rings can’t be the deciding factor because it comes down to how they were won.
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@12th Jokic and Dwight is an interesting one that I hope is never discussed due to Jokic cementing his legacy with a ring or 2.
But hypothetically speaking if that doesnt happen I do think there will be people that might look back and give the nod to Dwight over Jokic because of that. Even though Dwight had to ride coattails on the back end of his career to do it (which also is a talking point when it comes to who won what)
Does winning a ring in the prime of your career mean more than winning it later on the back of other stars? In that scenario I say yes and I'm sure that can often get overlooked
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@petravork yeah but Dwight got the chip, so people will try to leverage that in the future to say Dwight >> Jokic, even though overall jokic (could) be the better player
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@pandemicp said in The value of a championchip:
It holds weight but shouldn’t be the biggest deciding factor because it’s a team accomplishment.
People are allowed to say Jokic is the best player in the league but doesn’t have a ring like KD, Giannis, LeBron or Curry so what makes him worthy of the title?
Now yes we can say he’s had injuries but then that leads to why the last 5 titles can be seen as less valuable. Rings can’t be the deciding factor because it comes down to how they were won.
rings shouldn’t matter for individual listing because it’s purely a team thing. Take Scottie off the bulls and replace him with Kevin Gatlin, there’s no way Jordan leads a team of gatlin and the worm to 6 titles.
Rings are a team win, starting with the owner down to training staff.
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Jokic's current 2 year stretch is higher than any Dwight stretch in his career
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@yosemite_ham winning in your prime matters, but in the end…nobody cares. Most people will only look at the black and white and say “he got a ring, he didn’t…case closed”
Look at CP3 he’s arguably the best small guard to ever live, at one point this nigga was on the verge of quadruple doubles. But curry comes in and starts cooking, CP3 is plagued with random injuries and team melt downs in the playoffs. Loses in the finals last year and everyone goes “his legacy is fucked! He’s not that guy!” And it’s bullshit. Just because he hasn’t won doesn’t mean he isn’t who he is. If CP3 got 3 rings are we still calling curry the second best behind magic? Even though efficiency wise Chris Paul is technically the better point guard? Dude has the highest basketball IQ in league history, but has no rings so he doesn’t even make the top 10 list while people are putting curry in the top 5….it’s crazy to me
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@yosemite_ham said in The value of a championchip:
Jokic's current 2 year stretch is higher than any Dwight stretch in his career
Joker is great but I gotta disagree here.
Dwight was the craziest defensive force the NBA has ever seen for a good 6 years in a row, he’s a 3x DPOY who had 5 years of averaging 20/12/3 while playing elite defense.
I know 2004 was a long time ago but man come on
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@petravork I don't think Dwight was ever arguably the best player in the league. The best defender sure.
Jokic's MVP season and what he's doing so far this season are historic
And also currently on pace to set the all time records for PER, BPM, VORP, Raptor, every advanced stat you can think of
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@petravork defense wise i got Dwight
But jokic is the better overall player, dude is a LEGIT point center. We only see a player like him every 30 years, if that.
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@petravork yeah I rather bring up rings only if both players have them and compare whose was harder or who performed better if needed.
Gary Payton got a ring past his prime so it takes him off the list with Charles Barkley but nobody will rank Gary over him.
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Plus jokic looks like he works out 3 times a year, Dwight was made of pure steroids.
Which makes what jokic is doing even more impressive. That nigga is getting the MVP with a quintessential dad bod
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@12th said in The value of a championchip:
@petravork defense wise i got Dwight
But jokic is the better overall player, dude is a LEGIT point center. We only see a player like him every 30 years, if that.
Yea but last I saw, you gotta play both sides of the ball when you’re on the court.
I’d take a prime Dwight over many centers because he’s also going to save me points on the other end.
Joker is great and rare but prime Dwight was better BECAUSE of the defense. Flashy stats are cool and all but how beloved would KG be today if he also wasn’t a dog on defense? Can’t overlook every phase of the game.
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Nobody is answering the battles I posted in the OP though. All players with similar stats, accolades, the only thing separating them is rings so who wins?
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@petravork as much better as Dwight was on defense Jokic is just as better on offense.
Also Jokic has been elite on defense this year after being very good last year
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@pandemicp yeah imo Barkley is the most impressive PF I’ve EVER seen. He was not supposed to do what he did in that frame. That dude played like he was 7 feet tall and he was only 6’6. He’s POUND FOR POUND the best player to ever play, him and Iverson. If Barkley was 6’11 he would’ve been literally unfuckin guardable, dude would’ve been a living monstarr
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@12th said in The value of a championchip:
Plus jokic looks like he works out 3 times a year, Dwight was made of pure steroids.
Which makes what jokic is doing even more impressive. That nigga is getting the MVP with a quintessential dad bod
His best skill is his IQ. Dude we live in a post AAU world. No one teaches fundamentals anymore. Literally making highlight reel products rather than actual skilled basketball players.
Joker is smarter than almost everyone on the court, that’s both natural talent and a sign of the times. Dudes dad dicking everyone because well…most bigs he’s facing are too stupid to not get sausaged.
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@petravork yeah, that Euro training is different…they’re coming to America and beating us with brain over Braun. IQ is a lost art in American basketball.
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Jokic vs Dwight would come down to which do you prefer generational offense or generational defense?
History tends to lean on the offense being more valuable side
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@12th said in The value of a championchip:
@petravork yeah, that Euro training is different…they’re coming to America and beating us with brain over Braun. IQ is a lost art in American basketball.
It’s because these stupid AAU coaches want these guys to be throwing down 360 dunks all game so they can make a 6 minute highlight tape for YouTube.
Look at the talent level in the NBA, ask yourself how many actually elite players exist starting from 2015 and you’ll see what I mean.
The NBA is gonna have a superstar problem in a few years. There just isn’t many coming up. Last 5 drafts have had maybe 1 guy rise up, shit look at Ant Edwards draft, it’s fucking GHASTLY. Almost everyone in the top 15 is role player at best or bonafied scrub.
This is unsustainable for the NBA and it’s these high school coaches who are doing this.
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@yosemite_ham said in The value of a championchip:
IT vs John Stockton
Dwyane Wade vs Vince Carter
Tim Duncan vs Charles Barkley
David Robinson vs Patrick Ewing
Oscar Robinson vs CP3
Stockton: Better player imo, overall IQ through the roof. Call him a system player if you want but he was smart enough to adapt to any system. Had he been on a team that had more than Karl and horny check…he would’ve definitely had a ring.
D wade: Dude was a savant from his rookie year until he was too worn down to play. Floor general, extremely high IQ, insane defender, crazy agility…the complete package
Barkley: Timmy might have the rings, but Barkley is an alien. Like i said pound for pound best player to ever play. For his SIZE that dude played like he was a giant, the only reason he doesn’t have a ring is because the suns were ass. By the time he left the suns, he wasn’t the same.
David Robinson: He had everything Ewing had but more. He was faster, smarter, more athletic, better release, more composed, more militant. This is a close one but d rob gets the nod
I can’t honestly say who’s better between CP3 and Oscar because i wasn’t alive during Oscar’s reign. The record books would have you believe Oscar but i can’t say fir myself unless i saw each of their careeers
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@petravork yeah the only real stars from that Ant man draft is ant and lamelo. Cole Anthony is cooking but i don’t think he’s a star, maybe a light star.
Cade is showing up, Mobley is doing good too…but that’s the thing, it’s a longevity thing. Who’s gonna be around for 10+ years doing it?
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Bird vs Carmelo
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Kidd vs Russ
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@12th said in The value of a championchip:
@petravork yeah the only real stars from that Ant man draft is ant and lamelo. Cole Anthony is cooking but i don’t think he’s a star, maybe a light star.
Cade is showing up, Mobley is doing good too…but that’s the thing, it’s a longevity thing. Who’s gonna be around for 10+ years doing it?
From a pure talent perspective I legit actually do believe Sengun to be the best player out of this draft for the same reason I believe Joker and Doncic dominate, IQ. SENGUN might be the only true cornerstone player out of this draft if he puts it together. He’s already showing more flashes than anyone but flashes don’t mean shit if they don’t start becoming the norm.
Fuck US born and bred players, they’re too focused on Instagram than balling for real. Jordan would average 50
On these idiots -
@12th okay so we're split 2-2 in this post with an INC on Oscar vs CP3
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@petravork you not watching Mobley?
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@yosemite_ham said in The value of a championchip:
Bird vs Carmelo
Man I think people look at Melo as Mr Empty Stat. He gets passed over so often on all time lists.
Personally I think Melo is the definition of “I got mine fuck it” so he can eat shit. Dudes 6’8 Iverson without the heart.
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@yosemite_ham said in The value of a championchip:
@petravork you not watching Mobley?
Mobley is nice but Sengun is a legit point center, the rockets run their offense through him and his footwork and post moves make Mobley look like Mark Eaton in comparison.
Also Mobley has a usage rate that’s almost doubling sengun, all things equal I bet Sengun would have just as much ROTY hype if he also averaged 35 min a game.
Sengun just has poor conditioning and foul tendencies right now but if I had to project out 5 years from now, I’m taking Sengun
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@petravork said in The value of a championchip:
@yosemite_ham said in The value of a championchip:
@petravork you not watching Mobley?
Mobley is nice but Sengun is a legit point center, the rockets run their offense through him and his footwork and post moves make Mobley look like Mark Eaton in comparison.
Okay you clearly sleeping on Mobley lmao Mobley has legit shown flashes that look somewhere between Bosh and KG
Sengun got some tools let's see Silas start him and give him closer to 30mpg instead of 18
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@yosemite_ham said in The value of a championchip:
@petravork said in The value of a championchip:
@yosemite_ham said in The value of a championchip:
@petravork you not watching Mobley?
Mobley is nice but Sengun is a legit point center, the rockets run their offense through him and his footwork and post moves make Mobley look like Mark Eaton in comparison.
Okay you clearly sleeping on Mobley lmao Mobley has legit shown flashes that look somewhere between Bosh and KG
Sengun got some tools let's see Silas start him and give him closer to 30mpg instead of 18
Personally I don’t think Mobley is special. I would have fucking slapped the rockets GM if we drafted him. I don’t think he’s going to get much better than what he is now.
In fact I’ll make a WAGER. Psn or Xbox points if he makes 3 ALLSTAR appearances.
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@LebronsHairline dude it’s so good to see you again
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@petravork haha you too BROTHER sites very good too seeing older names is so good lol
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I think people are also coming around on Harden and a carrier he had more these days.
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@12th said in The value of a championchip:
Plus jokic looks like he works out 3 times a year, Dwight was made of pure steroids.
Which makes what jokic is doing even more impressive. That nigga is getting the MVP with a quintessential dad bod
Him, Luka and Harden seem like fat dudes with no speed and lift, but then these MFers speed things up and blow by you, their bodies do tricks on defenders minds and make them dangerous in their own right, kinda funny.
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@petravork said in The value of a championchip:
If we’re going to take the best 5 years of either guys career to judge them, Dwight wins. If Joker keeps this up for another 5+ then Joker in totality.
Total blasphemy wow I can’t believe the Joker disrespect he already better than Dwight ever was
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I’m not a Dwight fan but he was dominant in his prime. He drug an otherwise very average Magic team to the finals. Their second best player Jameer Nelson was injured basically that entire run.
Game has changed so much over the years. If you started watching the NBA in the last 10 years you’ve never even seen post play or defense with handchecking.
Always a fun debate but Hard to compare different era’s for sure.
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@knezius said in The value of a championchip:
@12th said in The value of a championchip:
Plus jokic looks like he works out 3 times a year, Dwight was made of pure steroids.
Which makes what jokic is doing even more impressive. That nigga is getting the MVP with a quintessential dad bod
Him, Luka and Harden seem like fat dudes with no speed and lift, but then these MFers speed things up and blow by you, their bodies do tricks on defenders minds and make them dangerous in their own right, kinda funny.
Luka looks so fat. They must be spiking his Gatorade with some ensure or something
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@yosemite_ham said in The value of a championchip:
How much does winning it all weigh into a debate between 2 players when individual stats and other accomplishments are comparable?
Stemming from a conversation in another thread who is the better player all time in these matchups in your opinion
IT vs John Stockton
Dwyane Wade vs Vince Carter
Tim Duncan vs Charles Barkley
David Robinson vs Patrick Ewing
Oscar Robinson vs CP3
These are just a few off the top of my head feel free to add more for discussion
Just judging those players that you posted only one that is debatable for me Is IT vs Stockton and I’d still give it to IT without rings
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Rings are very, very important. However, not everyone’s ring is weighted the same. A guy who’s a 2nd or 3rd star doesn’t get the same weight as someone who leads their team to the title. For guys that don’t have rings (the HOFers from MJ era), they have to have multiple MVPs or hold all time records to be in the conversations.
Not all Duncan’s rings weigh the same, early ones were him leading, later ones he was a role player. Same with DWade. IT and Stockton is a great debate in my mind. I don’t think there’s a wrong answer there. But everyone is different. I prefer winning over all.
